Samaira Wilson sits down with Ebony L. Haynes to discuss the impossibility of work-life balance, how she crafts love letters to the artists she works with through her curatorial practice, and the advice she offers aspiring curators.
From Shoot the Lobster to Martos Gallery to David Zwirner, Ebony L. Haynes has harnessed a passion for exhibition design, the set, the strike, and everything in between. For Ebony, curating is like music; it’s about rhythm, timing, and engineering an experience. In our one-on-one, we touched on Ebony’s day-to-day life, hot takes, the white cube, behind-the-scenes of the previous Nicole Eisenman show and recent Isa Genzken show. In her new role as Global Head of Curatorial Projects at David Zwirner, Ebony’s focus is on collaboration. With ambitions for the 52 Walker framework to travel to other David Zwirner locations, Ebony looks forward to translating her vision across national and international contexts. What fuels her curatorial practice is a love for the game, an indie spirit, and her indomitable ability to adapt.
Samaira Wilson: What does your typical day look like?
Ebony L. Haynes: I usually get to work a little after 9am. I like some time to settle in alone at my computer before the day really gets going. Things heat up as soon as the galleries open, 10am, whether it’s Zoom meetings or in-person. I feel like I drive my team crazy with really rushed requests. I work with an awesome team. I don’t usually get to eat a proper lunch. I drink a lot of Diet Coke, including this one that I already have at 10:30 in the morning. Back in a different part of my career, 10 years ago, I used to stay in the gallery until 8pm regularly, wherever I was working. But now, I do try to really head out at 6pm or just before, unless I have an event or something.
SW: Work-life balance, I guess.
ELH: Trying. Yeah.
SW: What has someone said to you that has changed your approach to curating or influenced your creative process?
ELH: I don’t think people recognized my practice as curatorial, until the 52 Walker program, even though I’ve seen it as very curatorially driven. One thing that comes to mind, which I’m happy to share, happened while installing one of my all time favorite exhibitions. Favorite for many reasons, not just because I thought it was a successful show conceptually, but because it was a huge benchmark for me in my career. I was the director at Martos Gallery, and I opened the first show in our new space in Chinatown. The exhibition was called Invisible Man. It was a really stressful install for so many reasons. One of them being, we were building this new gallery and trying to open on time with this show, which included an upside-down water fountain that had to drip through our brand-new floor. I cut a hole in the brand new reclaimed oak floor, and I was downstairs, just killing myself, trying to figure out how to build a contraption that let the water drop, where you can’t hear it all for this new commission by Pope.L, who’s one of my favorite people in the world. José Martos, who was a great boss and we worked closely, happened to be out of town. He was at a fair right before it opened and did a few other things in Europe before returning. It felt like he was away for a month. When he came back, I remember him not really stepping into the gallery, but excitedly rushing through on the morning of our opening. I was still touching up the walls, and I couldn’t figure out how to get this floating shelf to work. Something was wrong with the stud or I was just struggling, you know?
SW: Yeah.
ELH: He grabbed the drill from me and was like, I’ll do it. As he was trying to fix it, he said to me, which really, really stuck with me, immediately.. He said: “Sometimes Ebony, if something isn’t working, you don’t just keep going.” There were so many hurdles in realizing that show and I remember in my soul disagreeing with him. I was like, that’s not the answer. That feels like the opposite of a solution, and I was really upset because I’d struggled so hard to make the show work and eventually, in the end, it looked beautiful. I know he was just frustrated, but I didn’t even answer him. Everyone was exhausted, but I remember, and I think it’s true of my practice and how I curate; There’s always a solution, if you really think it’s important for your show. So, that’s a piece of advice that wasn’t meant to be advice.
SW: Yeah, sometimes knowing what you don’t want is just as much as knowing that you do want.
ELH: Totally. Yeah, people say I’m scrappy, but I’m not scrappy. I would say I’m just solution oriented.
SW: That’s how I think too, I feel that way about my family. We could have all odds set up against us and somehow, we’ll look around at the end and be like, wow, we really did everything we said we were gonna do. That level of reliability and willpower is necessary. Because now that I’m older, it’s like, oh, there was never a guarantee. We just made it happen.
ELH: Totally. I think it was important for me and I realize now too, the artists have a similar expectation, right? Like, what am I going to do? Go back and tell an artist that the thing we’ve been planning for months, that I’m throwing in the towel? It’s too much, it’s too expensive, it’s too hard, or it’s unreal– that doesn’t feel like an option.
SW: Which artist, dead or alive, would you like to spend a day with?
ELH: A visual artist?
SW: Mm, no, because my answer is Virgil Abloh, so I think it could be like anything.
ELH: Hm… I mean, you’ve said it. I’ve had the pleasure of spending time with him. But to be honest, I would love to spend a day with Virgil mostly to get his take on… so many things.
SW: Yeah, his takes. I want to hear his takes on everything.
ELH: Yeah, I mean, impeccable taste and foresight. I would also love to spend the day with Rick Rubin, just to see what his day is like.
SW: He’s so sure of his thoughts. Sometimes I get a little skeptical. I’m like, how are you so sure of what you’re saying?
ELH: I’m kind of inspired by him really, to have found a niche where you can be a trusted person in the background because you’re so sure of what is the best mood for somebody else or some album or some presentation, and people trust that unwaveringness. So, more just out of curiosity, I’d like to spend the day, but I don’t think I’d have as much conversation as I would hope to have with Virgil.
SW: My sister got me his book, ARTWORK, for my birthday. Having the fourth chapter is so special, with the vinyl of him and Carti talking. I love Virgil as well. It’s really crazy how much of an impact he left. Everybody he crossed paths with and collaborated with; he made so many design frameworks that he applied to architecture, fashion, and music. He flipped everything on its head.
ELH: I aspire to be one-tenth of the creative impact he’s had on people, really, including me, 100%. What’s most inspiring is how that hasn’t changed in the people who he has influenced, touched, worked with directly or indirectly; I think so many hold those experiences so close. He was, and will remain, a real influence for so many..
SW: What excites you most about exhibition design and which has been your favorite to date?
ELH:I really get a thrill from the challenges of space – or the bones you’re given to work with for any given exhibition. I think almost every gallery and museum must consider it, right? You want the show to look good. But I feel like seeing one thing that is off center or one thing that should have been two inches to the left bothers me when I go into any space, like I really feel it. So, I’m trying my hardest to make sure something’s not so poorly executed that visitors leave one of my shows with that same feeling. One of my favorite comments about the shows I did in Tribeca for 52W is when people say they don’t remember what the space looked like before because they leave with the impression of the current show. Sometimes people forgot there were columns going down the middle because I’ve been able to distract them from that. That’s my favorite part, and I really think if I had another career in me, I would want to just do that. I don’t know if freelance would make sense, but I would love to be in an office with a bunch of different museum models and gallery models and work through exhibition design. I love it more than anything. I also love the budget aspect of it. Again, figuring out ways to do what you want. Not anymore, but back in the day, I used to have to build things myself and install things myself. For example, figuring out how to make the floor look like it’s black without painting it or reading up on how to use a gantry to install a 300 lbs piece of basalt. It’s sort of a creative artistic practice. You’re making it, and that’s really fun. It’s really my favorite part of the job.
SW: You’re forming so many new strategies too, the troubleshooting adds to your tool belt.
ELH: Totally, I feel like I have such an arsenal of knowledge that I hope to just keep building on, even understanding the way a gallery or building, if you renovate or build it from the ground up, is constructed. How far apart are studs and joints usually? What is the capacity limit for certain buildings? What’s the insulation like? What’s the sound like? I’ve done a lot of different installations, and they’ve all been super helpful and influential on the next. About my favorite one so far, I plead the fifth, because I really don’t know. I mean, that would be so hard to answer.
SW: Do you feel like that’s just not possible or is it yet to come?
ELH: I think what happens is, I spend so much time making sure the show feels like it hits every mark it should, that it becomes the new favorite. It’s about the show I’m in. It doesn’t mean I like the show before less. I really love them all.
SW: It’s like when you can’t say you have a favorite kid. You just can’t.
ELH: Yeah, these shows are my babies and they’re different. Maybe that would be less true if I was installing a show for the same artist six times, right? Maybe there’s a favorite there, but they’re also different and the curatorial concepts in the 52W program have been so different.
SW: True. Speaking of exhibition design and seeing the space completely differently, I can’t believe Nicole Eisenman was in the same space that Isa Genzken is in now. I didn’t know there was even a divot with a patio! I was like…that was not there…this is a new place. Then for Nicole’s show, I thought the homasote walls came with the gallery, come to find out you guys collaborated with Nicole on every detail. When it comes to the exhibitions, does the artist usually have free reign? How does the curator-artist collaboration unfold?
ELH: Sometimes this happens in other commercial galleries, especially when there’s a really great relationship between directors and artists. But, what’s different about 52W as a program, because I created this for the art I wanted to see and stories I’m hoping to tell, I’m involved in the ideation, at least enough to try and make sure it’s realized as the best catalyst for entering into the artist’s ideas. When it was 52 Walker, I announced the shows a year in advance and that was intentional. I’m really making a mixtape. I sort of feel who should come first and the one after that one and after that one, etc. Nicole, for example, we would see each other, but I’d never met her formally. I had an idea, I asked her to have a studio visit, and that’s usually how it starts with most artists. I’ll be like, do you want to do a show? Or, I’ve been thinking about something, and I think you could probably respond well to it, I want to know what you’re thinking. I encourage artists to kind of go ham and think really big. Then we start, and it becomes a conversation. With Nicole, we’d been working on the show for a year and a half. To be clear, I was not an artist in the show, but I do think that a good curator helps. My goal is to have people feel as excited about the ideas and the work as me. I’m kind of a translator. So, I started throwing out ideas because I like exhibition design. I knew I wanted to close off the back, and I also knew very early I wanted to, for the first time, make it feel like an actual cube. I hadn’t done that before, but that was the first thing I was sure of. The ideas that we were sharing influenced it, but most importantly, it was inspired by the work. Once we realized it was painting, sculpture, video, and potentially drawings, I wanted it to feel intentional and cohesive as a space, because sometimes with various bodies of work, there’s so many nuances that influence it. But a year out, I knew I wanted a cube that you couldn’t see any work when you enter.
You have to trust your curator. I tell students and artists all the time, sometimes you’ll be invited to a museum or a show because you think it has cache or you should say yes, but maybe you don’t like the work of that curator, or you haven’t really enjoyed shows they worked on before. So, I could sense that Nicole was interested in the space. I mean, she came to see the Cauleen Smith show here like four times. Immediately she was like, oh, this is what you’re doing, I’d love to hear your idea. I would never force something on an artist, it’s not my way or the highway, but it should be a conversation. The homasote came up because I knew it was meant to be a really tight cube. Then, because it was a cube, it needed to feel like a room separate from the front. I suggested painting it, and I realized when she said it, she never paints walls for her shows. Unless the walls were already painted like in a museum. But it made sense because she says her paintings are so big and full of color, it just felt combative. I was like, yeah, that’s true, I see that. But I think we could find a color that could work.
This is my favorite part, and Nicole is an example of why I do what I do. She’s a stellar artist and trusting, she was like, all right, let’s see. So, I sent swatches to the studio. I painted 3 x 3 squares, multiple different shades of this greenish color. Then it was brownish, beige, green, and we didn’t want to get too blue. Then, she suggested at one point maybe I mix my own color. It was months of that and then I said what if we use something else? Maybe it’s fabric, like linen. It was actually her studio manager and assistant Sam, who worked really closely with both of us during the show who suggested the final wall material. We were thinking about materials that needed to be affordable, it had to come in sheets, and cost efficient.I was really thinking about creating a cool bunker, which was the title of one of the paintings, but concrete would be crazy. Sam suggested homasote, since you can push pins in it and I wanted to include things that were in her studio because she had so much pinned up that inspired us. It’s really affordable, and then we thought about it. It’s a material that we could definitely find a home for after as a donation for artist studios, music studios, and fashion studios. Even better, it looked like the room was made of concrete. It was a real collaboration and after talking through multiple materials, it became homasote. I am forever grateful to Nicole for that show, but also very notably to Sam.
SW: That is so crazy. I’m a bit of a material empath, so I’m always looking at things like what is that? Where do I know that material from? I remember rubbing the wall and feeling like it was the inside of a wall. I truly did think that’s just how 52 Walker came.
ELH: That was one of the goals. About Isa Genzken, I was going to say Isa is an artist I wanted to spend the day with because she’s one of my favorite artists. I’ve never had the pleasure of meeting her. Her health isn’t so great at the moment, and she wasn’t involved with this show in a hands-on way, but when I knew she couldn’t really be involved, I just made it a task for myself to kind of create the vibe that I get from Isa. I think she’s a badass. I think she’s very similar to what we both were saying about Virgil’s strength. Her connection to a little of everything and her appreciation for architecture, music, technology, and the politics of feminism and sexism. I feel like she’s the kind of artist who would come into my office, light a cigarette, and not ask– and I wouldn’t dare ask her to put it out. I really love her practice so much. A lot of the inspiration for it came from a friend, Mahfuz Sultan. We were talking about how much we love Isa, and he mentioned this book, Urlaub. He knows a lot about everything. He can start talking about a publisher’s history or an architect’s inspiration, he just knows the coolest shit. So, I got the book. We had it in our library here and at the gallery in Chelsea. It was so funny, then I thought “Isa’s so funny.” That book was the starting point, and the title of the book in German is Urlaub, which translates to “vacation,” and that’s why I titled my show VACATION. In the back, I took the wall down. Normally, the windows are open for other shows, but we have screens on them so you can’t see the architecture in the back. This is the first show where I took them off and I took them off the front too, because she said everyone needs at least one window. She was really interested in windows and made a series of works with windows. So, I tried to make the space feel like her practice.
SW: Your approach is how I think about love letters. It’s kind of like you’re pouring in all your love for them and trying to honor them.
ELH: Totally, it’s my love letter to them.
SW: That’s so cool, I don’t meet a lot of people doing what they love anymore.
ELH: I love my job.
SW: What edge would you say that you look for an artist?
ELH: I don’t know what I look for, I think if I’m drawn to it, that’s the edge. It could be beautiful, but it doesn’t have to stand out or do something different every time. I’m not making brand new discoveries here; it’s just my gut. I think it’d be fair to say, I’m a fan of minimalism, as a style, and conceptual work that is hard to penetrate or those kinds of practices. I’m very intrigued by those as a base. But I love painting too. I did a Bob Thompson show, who is one of my favorite artists. It was a dream to do a Bob Thompson exhibition. So, I just feel it.
SW: What is your favorite means to subvert traditional white cube frameworks?
ELH: I love this question;my favorite means of subverting it is by embracing it and not pretending. It’s been so important for me to be upfront about my desire for a for-profit gallery. I called it a kunsthalle with a gallery, because the capitalist-for-sale-commercial side was important for me. I don’t think a paradigm shift is helpful, most importantly for the artist. Artists need money. Artists need studios, and while there are shows that aren’t necessarily for sale, I wasn’t interested in being that kind of space. I was really interested in finding a way to maybe not subvert the white cube as a commercial entity, but instead shift the ideas around the kind of shows we could put on those spaces.
SW: Getting into the transition that’s happening now, how will 52W live as a practice as the space transitioned to a regular David Zwirner gallery? How will the gallery’s model and founding narrative live on?
ELH: It’s interesting because that’s how people can absorb it as a reality. In my mind, it was always a David Zwirner gallery. But I understand that interpretation for people and the need to have things really clear. Another way I wasn’t trying to subvert the white cube was, I wanted to be a David Zwirner gallery. I knew its influence and presence in the art world; it’s a fantastic gallery. David is representing Isa and they have so many artists that I really admire. So, I was proud of that alignment. That’s really not lip service, nobody paid me to say that. I chose to embark on this with David Zwirner for a reason. I really respect the program. I don’t think I could have done this if I didn’t like the gallery program, you know? So, it’s transitioned to a David Zwirner location and when we were ideating this new version of it, I was talking about it with David and some other colleagues here, and I described it as David Zwirner being the major label, and 52W’s the indie label. So, when you spawn off an indie label of the gallery, little and big things will change. We won’t have only four shows a year, we might have fewer, maybe we’ll have more. Maybe it looks less like an exhibition every time, maybe there are a couple more events, maybe a concert, or a book launch. We’ve already done a wrestling match here. Maybe there could be more things that become more of a vibe and less rigid than four exhibitions every year with the same opening date and closing date. So, that will change in the cadence of the calendar. There’s also the potential for a 52W vibe to be realized and presented at any David Zwirner gallery. There’s New York, LA, Hong Kong, Paris, and London. I’m very excited about it. I’m also working on projects that are not “52W,” but rather within the Zwirner artist program, which has already been super rewarding. 52W feels like my curatorial vibe and less of a program in a single building.
SW: In an old interview, you said that people don’t always know what 52W is everywhere. But now, it seems like the turnover is actually becoming a way for it to travel to other states and continents.
ELH: I keep saying this as an example because I’ve actually never been to Hong Kong, let alone thought about a show that could work there. But that’s what I like, I believe curators need to be in practice just as much as artists. It’s the challenge of a different continent, a different way of working for people. I did one show in Paris, one show in London as David Zwirner. So, I do projects for David still as a curator, and that’s part of why this shift felt natural. I will continue to do things that might be interesting for the gallery itself and our artists, and then do things that are 52W. People work differently in different countries, you know? New York has maybe the worst work-life balance in the world. So, when I go somewhere and everyone is like, okay, we’re gonna have lunch. I was like, what? But then I really appreciated it. I loved installing in Paris. That sounds so corny to say about what I’m excited about, but I like the idea of working in different vibes, with different colleagues, for different audiences.
SW: Yeah, and then seeing how people from different cultures process information differently. When you’re thinking of the viewer, you’re thinking of their customs, and it’s like a cool way to expand yourself and adjust to them.
ELH: Yeah, it’s like you don’t want to have this antiquated, rigid, colonial framework where you insert yourself onto someone or something. I want to be considerate of who the main audience is, I mean it’s a global audience.
SW: Yeah, it’s crazy. It’s kind of like 52W is going on tour.
ELH: Oh, love it. Add it to my music analogies. Yeah. It’s true.
SW: What part of your role as Global Head of Curatorial Projects has surprised you?
ELH: Hmm. For a moment, it felt like there was a regular pace of work for the first time. But I feel very busy, which was surprising. It’s not an insurmountable amount of busyness, but it’s interesting to see how my practice is changing. I’m thinking about ways to work more closely with my colleagues here. Isa Genzken’s show is a great example. Unlike 52W shows, where it was really me driving the program and so I was the artist liaison for every show. But Isa Genzken is a David Zwirner artist, and has a very formidable liaison, one of my favorite people here, Veronique Ansorge, who’s an associate partner at the gallery. She has been here for a long time and she is a wealth of Genzken knowledge. It was nice to have a partner in making sure the show was a success. I could only hope to have that experience for every show. I’m surprised and very excited by the amount of collaboration that I see coming down the pipeline for this year. Also, trying to hear what my colleagues would like to see in different locations. Some of them have said, we would really love a 52W show this fall or next spring. Then getting to ask them, well what are you feeling? Or, what’s going on? What kind of vibe is it? That’s been really interesting and has happened right away. I’m excited to see it continue.
SW: The idea of infiltrating these spaces sometimes comes with the thought that you’re infiltrating to change everything from the inside out, or like Virgil says, like a Trojan Horse. You’re opening doors that were not open before. Like, when he was at Louis Vuitton, I compare you guys to each other a little bit because David Zwirner is lowkey the art version. It’s where decisions are being made and it’s smack dab in the middle of this system, the art world, and you’re there, you have your role and you’re changing things. What do you do once you know what it’s like to be on the outside and the inside?
ELH: I don’t feel like I’m on the inside in that way. I would argue I don’t know that Virgil truly felt on the inside, and I can’t speak for it, but I think you’re on the inside as much as you are allowed to come in. I do feel like I’ve been invited to contribute. I’m not expecting to have more insider influence. I want and can only hope to be additive. I’m not trying to say I’m not heard here, but I have a boss, you know? I love that I can say I love my job. I’m not upset if I’m not invited to a particular meeting. I’m interested to hear what’s happening at the meeting I am invited to, you know? It’s like focusing on what you can actually focus on and what you can actually access.
SW: I relate to a lot of your story about how you arrived where you are, like not knowing what’s next or not knowing what your passions are gonna lead you to, it’s weird, but it’s, it’s inspiring to see that you land. You land somewhere, and then you continue to arrive, if that makes sense.
ELH: Adapt or die, baby. I mean, really, it’s interesting because so many people assumed I would be upset or a lot of fans of the space were more upset than me by the changeover. And I really love how the fans of the program reacted, to be honest. But I didn’t feel thrown off track, you know? It’s “on to the next.”
SW: Because you’re you, you’re the thing.
ELH: No, I think, you know, I’m not inspiring. I just want to make sure I can keep doing shows with things that excite me. That’s really what I care about. I’m actually quite selfish when you think about it (lol)
SW: But that’s why you’re at peace because you know it’s going to continue.
ELH: Yeah, it’s true, a little bit. I just want to do cool shit and make cool shit. I want people to be excited about making their own art too.
SW: Building an international cult following is exciting too.
ELH: Yeah, you know? It’d be so fun to bring a 52W show to people who have just had to watch from afar.
SW: Yeah. Very much tour vibes. I used to explain art careers like that to people. Like, you get signed by a label, which is the gallery, and then you just go around to different places, you put your shows on somewhere, and then you pack up and you leave.
ELH: Yeah, true. Set up and strike the show.
SW: Do you have any wisdom for aspiring curators?
ELH: I don’t claim it to be wisdom, but I can give some experience-based advice. I hope it happens naturally for most curatorial students or aspiring curators, but I think it’s really important for curators to learn how to produce and install their own exhibitions. I think that it’s easy for someone to write or shout a request without ever knowing how to do it and be upset if it’s not done the way you want, or someone tells you it’s impossible. I don’t think curators are divas or anything, but you really change the way you approach exhibition design once you know how to do it, and when you know why you do certain things. Like if I’m making a new frame, I don’t want D-rings, I’d rather have a cleat. That’s from an experience I had hanging a huge show, and it had all these different frames with wonky D rings or wires, and measuring was a bitch.
Can you cut a hole in the wall? What’s the turnaround time to repair it? You have to be considerate of how to set up and strike. Am I giving enough time for the next show to reset? I was going to do something even crazier with Isa, but I didn’t want to be intrusive on the next on the calendar show. They need time too. Also, I think you need to put on the gloves, learn how to measure what the midline is, and really get a sense for how you want your show to look and why. Then later, if you’re privileged enough, you can ask someone to do it for you or watch it be done, which I still have a hard time doing. But, if you don’t think it’s fun to install, I don’t think you should be a curator. Maybe rethink, that’s my advice, really.
Here’s another tip for the curious, you should never ask somebody an opinion of your show if it changes how it’s going to look because of criticism. This happened to me a few times in my career. If you feel like there could be blowback or it won’t land well for a certain audience or cancel culture shit. Like if that is floating around, the last thing I ever do is ask somebody else’s opinion. I decidedly do not. I actually shut down even more and get introspective and play out scenarios in my own mind. Because it’s my show. If I get canceled or critiqued in a negative way, what am I gonna do? Say, well, I spoke to so-and-so and they said I should go ahead?…No. I put the show up. Where’s your conviction? What’s at stake for you if you’re willing to cancel a show? Because somebody has a problem with it? How lame, in my opinion, truly. I think that is really so fucking boring. Sometimes there’s more pressure, like museums have money, the board and trustees are feeling pressured for so many different reasons. I’m sure if the curators had the choice, they wouldn’t cancel anything.
SW: It’s really interesting how serious everybody’s role is. The artist’s role is serious, we are making statements, we’re bringing concepts to life. The curator and the whole team are too and they’re doing all the front facing work. The art handlers, the dealers, the collectors, the museums, the non-profits, it really is like such an ecosystem you have to play your role. It’s a lot to process.
ELH: Honestly, yeah. It’s a lot to process and, you know, it doesn’t come quick. I love my job, but I’ve had lots of jobs I loved. I didn’t come to 52W out of school. I’ve been working in this field for 15 years now. So, everything is a lesson. My role and how I view myself as a curator is constantly, not changing, but being reworked.
SW: I will be watching you, cheering you on!
ELH: Ditto. I’ll do the same.
